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The Gamerheads Podcast
Indie Insights and Top 5 Indie Games (So Far) of 2024 with Jill Grodt, The Indie Informer
Welcome to another episode of The Gamerheads Podcast. In this enlightening episode, Roger sits down with Jill Grodt from The Indie Informer. Jill opens up about her passion for indie games, her experiences in the gaming journalism world, and the unique challenges she faces running The Indie Informer. She also shares how she juggles multiple podcast commitments, offering a glimpse into the life of a busy gaming journalist.
We chat about the unique appeal and challenges of indie games, highlighting innovative titles like Bahnsen Knights and Lorelei and the Laser Eyes among others in our discussion around our top five indie games of the year (so far)!
The conversation does not stop there. We delve into the impact of streaming and social media on the indie gaming scene, discussing the double-edged sword that these platforms represent for indie developers. From navigating the pressures of social media scrutiny to maintaining self-worth amidst creative challenges, we cover it all. We also reflect on the importance of patience and self-worth in the creative industry.
Exciting news from the Gamerheads team! We're gearing up for our panel at PAX, and the thrill of being featured on the PAX special guests page has us buzzing with anticipation. As we gear up for PAX West, we share practical advice for both attendees and exhibitors, ensuring everyone can make the most of this exciting event.
Join us for a packed episode filled with insights, laughter, and a deep love for indie games.
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Music:
Jeff Dasler - Recused
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This episode of the Gamer Heads Podcast is brought to you by Seven Bridges Premium Gourmet Yum Yum Sauce. Enhance every bite with our savory blends of flavors, perfect for meats, vegetables and crispy treats. Whether you're dipping, drizzling, marinating, grilling, roasting or snacking, seven Bridges Yum Yum Sauce takes your culinary experience to the next level. Get yours today and make every meal a gourmet delight. Hi, I'm Celia Schilling from Yacht Club Games. Hey, this is James from Mega Cat Studios.
Speaker 2:Hey, this is Matt aka Stormageddon from Reignite Screen Snark and the Fun and Games Podcast. This is Stephanie from the Boss Rush Podcast and the Boss Rush Network.
Speaker 1:Hey, this is Mark and Kion from Bonta Affold. Hey, this is Mark and Kion from Bonta Affont. Hey, this is Sebastian with the PronerdReportcom and the Single Player Experience Podcast. Hi, this is Chris, mike and Garrett from Daylight Basement Studio. Hey, this is BaronJ67 from Level One Gaming. Hey, this is Todd Mitchell from Code Right Play Salutations. This is Mike Carroll from Stroll Art. Hey, this is Jeff Moonen from Fun and Games Podcast. What's good y'all. This is Adam from Respawn Aimfire. Hey, this is Patrick from the Backlog Odyssey. Hey, this is Rune from Runic Codes.
Speaker 2:Hi, this is Andrew from Spaladabirds. Hi everyone. Jill Grote here from the Indie Informer.
Speaker 3:Hello, this is the Crypt Master and you're listening to Roger Richier. You're listening to Roger on the Gamer Heads Podcast.
Speaker 1:And welcome to another episode of the Gamer Heads Podcast. My name is Roger. Along with me this week is not Mike, it's not, it's not Phil. No, we have Jill, the Indian, former Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, I could be neither of those people.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, I'm glad you're not one of those people. I love them, but you know, the last time I I came on.
Speaker 2:I think we insinuated that I murdered someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 2:I think that was a thing, I'm slowly getting through the entire cast.
Speaker 1:Wait what? What is it me next? Wait what? I'm the only one left. Oh man, it's pretty soon to be jill groat the, the indian former and gamer heads, uh, anyway, host yeah, I will tell you, I don't know. If you'd probably do one show, you'd be like I don't want this gig anymore, I'm done, I'm done. Uh, well, jill, welcome to the show. I know you've been like I don't know what is this 500 500 and 62 yeah, something like that I
Speaker 1:don't know we lost track after seven, I think. Um, briefly, if you want to tell people a little bit about yourself, in case this is the first time they're ever listening to the gamer heads podcast, this is the first time you've made a good decision. Welcome to the GamerHeads podcast where I will soon be host.
Speaker 2:My name is Jill Grote. I run the Indie Informer. If that name sounds slightly like Game Informer, that is because I did work at Game Informer until the layoff Not even the last, most recent but one of the layoffs happened unfortunate most recent, but one of the layoffs happened unfortunate um and I I took off to start a new website that is entirely focused on indie games and therefore, if you are interested in indie games and you want to know more about what's happening, check out uh any coverage for previews, reviews or just my impressions on games, you can head over to theindieinformercom.
Speaker 1:Yeah and Jill, you are killing it when it comes to you, because this is your second podcast. Yeah, a lot of things besides, just co-host on a podcast, but I mean this is your second podcast today, but I mean you have your own podcast. You host with other people.
Speaker 2:I shouldn't say your own podcast you well, you host with other people. I shouldn't say your own. It is a collaborative effort between four of uh, four major indie creators who are lovely and do a lot of work to make me look good.
Speaker 1:Well, I, I, I love the podcast and uh.
Speaker 2:I like it too. It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:It is a lot of fun. Um, but yeah, you're super busy, so I want to first of all thank you for taking time out of your schedule to be on the show once again.
Speaker 2:Background for anybody who doesn't know I was 10 minutes late to this podcast and he is now thanking me.
Speaker 1:I think I gave you a hard time before. I was joking, but it's awesome to have you here and the fun thing is you're always so gracious to come back and I don't know why it's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's a big part of why you go off and do your own thing right? It's because you want to do the things that interest you. So if you had been a terrible person, Get out of here. Don't have to work with these people again.
Speaker 1:But you know, one of the cool things and we'll talk about PAX here in a little bit, but I am going to drop this right here because it's early on in the podcast and people should pay attention to this uh-huh we are on a team in a panel at pax how cool is august 30th at 9 pm pacific time yeah, that's, that's gonna be a problem.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna tell you that because because that's gonna be really late for you yeah it is.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm gonna be. Uh, yeah, you're gonna have to carry the team.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna tell you it's gonna be like when an anime character has all of the like, uh, heavy things around their arms and legs. We can't let you get too far ahead yeah, it's good, it's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's I'm gonna be your weight. That's what I'm gonna be. I'm gonna just drag you down.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm going to be. I'm going to just drag you down.
Speaker 1:This is going to be fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I imagined literally you like around my arm, come on.
Speaker 1:Come on, riker, let's go. You've got this, but I'm not going to spoil this, because I want people to see what we, the grand reveal. But it should be here August 12th.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm excited.
Speaker 1:So I'll show you. I'll take a picture when we get it.
Speaker 2:Okay, send it to me.
Speaker 1:And then I'll bring it. But you know, this is great content.
Speaker 2:No one knows what we're talking about. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:This is like the best podcast. Nobody's gonna get this because this is all audio but jill yes, that too it's gonna be, awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, this is gonna be great yeah I'm so excited, yeah, I feel like the grand.
Speaker 2:We should have a discussion about how the grand reveal happens, because I think it should be hidden until the moment of reveal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it should be, we should yes, for sure, for sure, for sure. If I had enough time, I would also go, like you know, like you know, I'm going to do a full. Yeah, exactly Like what Anybody who's watching this?
Speaker 2:when you watch the panel, this will all make sense.
Speaker 1:This will all make sense. Yeah, August 30th, 9 pm Pacific time, and I think like it's on one of the PAX channels, right?
Speaker 2:Like I don't know, they have like a couple of stream channels. Just put in the correct answer here.
Speaker 1:And that's one last thing I'll say about that was really cool is that we are on their special guests page as well, we're on the packs page.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was like looking through and I saw my big old face. I'm like, oh, that's cool.
Speaker 1:I saw me. I'm like, oh, that's great, I'm right if you look at the website. I'm right If you look at the website, not the mobile. But if you look at the website you have Phil Spencer, roger Riker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good company.
Speaker 1:It's alphabetical order, but it's still pretty cool.
Speaker 2:It's in order of importance, Roger. It's in order of importance.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, yeah, sure, but yeah, it's cool, that's very cool. I well, okay, yeah sure, uh, but yeah, it's cool, that's very cool. I'm excited about that. So, uh, I should go through some business before we jump into everything. Welcome to our patrons.
Speaker 1:Uh, jill, you're a patron of of gamer heads I am indeed uh and jill and matt thank you so much for chill and matt and sarah I should mention. Uh, thank you so much for supporting gamer heads. If you listener want to support the Gamer Heads podcast, you can as well. For as low as $3 a month you can join the Gamer Heads Nation. Just click on the link in the show notes and you can join our Patreon. Also just want to give a shout out. Jill, are you a fan of Yum Yum Sauce? Do you like Yum Yum Sauce?
Speaker 1:I have no idea what yum yum sauce is, what it?
Speaker 2:makes me think of speaking of facts. Uh, dinar's yum yum hut. That's the first thing I thought of. So tell me about yum yum.
Speaker 1:You've never had yum. Oh my gosh, I don't know what this is. It's like a tangy. It's a tangy, it's like it's usually like okay, so seven bridges. Yum yum. Sauce is one of our sponsors, right, okay, and uh, and we got a bottle of it. I got a bottle of it. It's so good, it's. It's like a tangy sauce, usually like you find it typically on like sushi and stuff like that but I've been putting on on rice or chicken.
Speaker 1:Uh, hamburgers I've been putting on hamburgers. Uh, it's very yummy and uh so it's not an ironic name no, it, it's not. No, it'd be really weird if it was like it's not very good, it's Yum, yum Sauce.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't have a sponsor for too long. I don't think.
Speaker 1:That's true, that's true. But, jill, I can probably hook you up with a bottle of Seven Bridges Yum, yum Sauce if you're interested. I have never been more interested in anything in my life, roger, never been more interested in anything in my life. Roger, listeners, you as well. Can uh go to the link in our show notes and check out seven bridges? Yum yum sauce. Uh, it's very yummy, uh. So there go check that out. All, right now, we got all those things out of.
Speaker 1:That's like our legal stuff that we have to get out of the way um now we can talk about the podcast we're actually talking about this week, so we're gonna we're gonna cover a couple things. We're gonna talk about the podcast we're actually talking about this week, so we're going to cover a couple things. We're going to talk about the best indie games of 2024 so far and we're going to talk about PAX as well and what we're most looking forward to. But yeah, we're going to start with the best indie games of 2024 so far.
Speaker 2:If I had the soundboard again, I would have a really cool sound there, but it's gone they took that away from me, yeah yeah, they couldn't be trusted with it yeah, so okay, before we jump in, yeah, do we count um like early access. Are we waiting? Are we waiting for just like?
Speaker 1:oh, that's a good question. I think we can call.
Speaker 2:We can call, we'll just put an asterisk next to those things, okay like you know, we'll say it's in early access because like, because of course, there are a couple of things that come to mind when you think about what's in early access in indie so maybe I will skip those okay, I, I have my list, but to tell you the truth, I'm not 100 sure they're not in early access.
Speaker 1:So they might be, but I would have to. When I say them, you'll be like oh, that's an early access. Get rid of that, roger.
Speaker 2:And then get out of there, roger. No, I'll let you have it. I'm yeah, no I think, there are just so many good games there are.
Speaker 1:I know I know, and this is going to make it even more difficult, Jill I'm going to limit you to five.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's the hard part is limiting myself. When Roger first shot it through he was like can you think five? I'm like I could do 15, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:I'll let you start. We'll go go round robin, even though there's only two of us we'll just go back and forth, I guess. So I'll start you, I'll let, and this is an for me, it's no, in no particular order for me yeah, I don't know if you have an order, but I just have no particular no, I don't have an order.
Speaker 2:I think the first one that I really want to shout out um is nine souls oh yeah, red candle games.
Speaker 1:I have not played that yet um, it's really good.
Speaker 2:I just got to the part with zombies, so like you know, I don't know if it's a roger game at this point wait, is it scary? I mean, here's the thing red candle games for anyone who doesn't know has a horror background they created devotion, which a lot of people will know from uh getting banned from steam because of it. It's the game that was banned because it made reference to, or supposedly made reference to, the chinese president, um and connecting it to winnie the pooh oh, interesting, hilarious, by the way.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, you can look up all of this information yeah, and you can't get it on steam anymore, you actually have to go to the red candles game uh website in order to play it, because it was banned from, like china, and that the creators are from taiwan. So it's this whole political like back and forth. So, like it's so, there is a lot of interesting background behind the creators of this game yeah but they have a really interesting background in horror.
Speaker 2:So getting to see that pop up in this game, which is not a really slick, really beautiful, um, souls-esque, metroidvania-esque game okay, okay it wasn't the horror, it would be the souls like so um, yeah, no, it is so good, though, like if that's the kind of game that speaks to you, this, this is a game you should be playing If you are a person who is waiting for Silksong this is the game you should be playing, because they don't have any right.
Speaker 2:Having been a first-person horror game, that's like a walking sim that you're just kind of plodding along slowly and scarily to this really beautiful fluid. Like all, the game is about deflection, unlike a lot of other action games, which are just hit, hit, hit, so it's a lot of thinking and strategizing about how you're using your abilities yeah which is a really cool and they do it so well and they don't have any right to do it as well as they're doing, because this is a completely different genre.
Speaker 2:For that, for the creators, it is a completely different artistic style. It is sort of a hand-drawn 2d anime-esque. Look to it and it's just gorgeous and I I love and I love this game so much I haven't even it is tough. It is so tough, you can see, I have done a couple of gameplay sessions on streams.
Speaker 2:And you can see how tough the game really gets. So I am still unfinished with it and I'm still trying and it's a real shame that, uh, the game hit sort of in the middle of, I think, summer game fest if I remember correctly, yeah um and the keys did not go up out ahead of time. So with this kind of perfect storm, unfortunately that means a lot of people didn't play it to it, didn't play it one, or didn't play it to a point where they felt like they could cover it.
Speaker 2:So, like a lot of people, I think, are missing out on this fantastic, one of the best games of this year wow because of how, like the business of this stuff kind of works, and that's a real shame because it deserves to have everybody being like. You know who cares about Silksong? Let's play Nine Souls. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's funny that one thing I love about indie games is the fact that these studios take risk like that. Is the fact that these studios take risk like that, and the fact that you know the studio I think of, even like Mighty Yell, like how different all their games are, right, and that's what I love about indie studios, because the fact that they take risk and they're like, well, we're going to try this, we're going to do something completely different, and it boggles my mind. It boggles my mind that they do that, because, like, it boggles my mind that they do that because, like and I actually talked to, I talked to Dave from from Mighty L. And.
Speaker 1:I and I mentioned that in one of my interviews with him. I said it's crazy to me to think that you go from like. This is when A Night in the Attic came out. You know they went from a big con, which was like an adventure game, to a very 90s.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very 90s to a VR game, like that's a VR puzzle game, like so different, right. But I think it's their ability to think outside the box and try to do things and, you know, take risks and that's what makes the indie scene so amazing. So do I have to play this game? Should I play this game?
Speaker 2:so do I have to play this game? Should I play this game? Um, from your reaction to the genres and the horror elements, I'm gonna. I mean, I think everyone should play this game yeah but if that doesn't feel like up your alley, then yeah maybe just watch people play it and see, get an idea, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:But everyone else okay, where can I go watch your stream?
Speaker 2:uh, you can go check it out at the indianformercom. Just type in uh, nine souls, it's n-i-n-e-s-o-l-s souls, like a son nine souls.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, uh, for me. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call a audible here. Okay, because I don't know if this game came out this year. I don't remember. Did el paso elsewhere come out this year? Was that last year?
Speaker 2:I feel like that was last I think so too, but like this is but the strange scaffold has other games that are popped out this year and I think another one coming up in a couple of weeks that's going to be in this list the next time you make it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wasn't sure so, but I'll, I'll mention this game then Boston nights Okay, so this is one of those. I heard Janet talk about this on your last episode of your podcast. This is one of those. Uh, I heard um janet talk about this on your last episode of your podcast. This is one of those pixel pulp games, yes, uh, and now there's a fourth one coming out, but this is the third one in the series. And in this game you are a, uh, undercover cop and I don't say cop, maybe fbi, they don't really say but you're undercover, undercover and you're going into this cult and that's this boston knights group like you do, yeah, like you do, and they they it's a religious cult and they believe in that.
Speaker 1:They can scare away tornadoes with their driving of their cars and certain formations, and you're a driver in one of these cars, yeah. So there's a lot of like visual novel aspects to it. But then there's moments where it's just like intense moments where you have to like drive the car and the dodge tornadoes and other weird stuff coming at you. It's crazy, uh. And then there's moments where, like you're in this like bar area where all the knights hang out and you have to act quickly to uncover certain things and figure out certain clues. And I was very proud of myself because I did get the best ending and I was very happy with that.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's good. Yeah, is there a good ending when you've got cults that are driving cars against tornadoes?
Speaker 1:There is, there is, there is. Yeah, I don't want to spoil for anybody, but there is. There's also probably bad endings too. I did die along the way. So you know that my game ended, but it's really good. The writing is really good, the art is very good. It's all this pixelated, like 16-bit type looking right, but it looks like old, like PC games.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has that real element of like it makes it feel old somehow. Yeah, but the vibrancy of it keeps it from looking old. Yeah, Like it's a really cool art style.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the one thing that just really stood out for me, too, is the colors that they used. Like in this one they used a lot of reds and a lot of purples and like deep reds and deep purples, which just made you feel uneasy like going through the game, and then in the end I'm not going to spoil it, but like the colors are vibrant and and and made me feel better about like what happened right.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 1:But that one's really good and I haven't played the other. I know that Phil has played Mothman and Varney Lake. I think that's the other one. Yeah, Varney Lake. He's played both of those and he's really loved them, so I need to go back and play those other two. All of them Very very good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, All right them very, very good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, that was mine. What's your next game on this list?
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm looking through my list and I'm like how do I cut everything down? I think I have to go with the one that's going to be continuously on top lists until the end of the year, and that's Bellatro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, on top lists until the end of the year. Um, and that's bellatro. Yeah, yeah, bellatro absolutely took the world by storm. Even people who are not big indie fans got into this game and can't stop playing it. Um, it's one of those games that I'm like I can't pick it back up or else I'll start again. I'll have to do it. Uh, and it's one of my greatest accomplishments this year that I managed, on stream, to win a game of velatro, and now no one can like take that away from me.
Speaker 2:Um, it's such. It is such a prime example of a creator finding a very simple idea and just making it the best possible version that it doesn't need to be all these genres put together and crazy art and huge production value. It's like you can't put this game down.
Speaker 2:It is so much fun for anyone who has not played, go and play Bellatro, because it's amazing, but it is a game in the form of how things are scored and how things are played and how things exist in the world, and they start giving different boosts and different qualities to your cards, and the more that that starts happening, the more strategy you can build around. Okay, so now I have a card that allows me to make a straight out of four cards instead of five. So now I'm gonna go for cards that are straights, and now I want to pick up cards that give more points if you play like a straight in your hand, um, so that you continue to get more and more, and then you do have every round you have like a boss battle. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which does something ridiculous, and I really recently like the last time I played found a Joker that negates the boss. Yes, and I'm like. I love this Joker. I'm never putting this Joker down. Yes, it doesn't do anything else. Putting this joker down. It doesn't do anything else. And, like during any of the other like rounds of of poker, you you are like, oh, maybe I should have something that helps scoring, but then when you get to the boss, it's just so easy to blow through it. You're like, nope, this is worth it.
Speaker 1:I'm never getting rid of this card it really helps with that one boss I can't remember the name of it, but where you can only play one hand yeah I actually really like that boss because, I typically, my strategies usually turn into only play one kind of hand anyway.
Speaker 2:Um, I think the ones that are hardest for me are things that these cards are no longer. You cannot use them, especially if I have a like. I had a really bad situation where I had the cards that let you count any red card as the same thing yeah, um so I had been getting rid of black cards and all of my jokers were about scoring for those cards, and then I came up against a boss that was like no diamonds count yeah and I was like none of my jokers were about scoring for
Speaker 2:those cards, and then I came up against a boss that was like no diamonds count, yeah, and I was like none of my cards can score, so I lost immediately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I usually you know I've lucked out when I'll run into those bosses early where it says like none of the hearts or diamonds or whatever can score, and then I'll be like cool, I won't run into that boss again. And then I just, you know, stack up on the red cards or whatever.
Speaker 2:The case is right so, but like that's why this game should be in top lists, because anybody who's played it has those sort of fond memories, and you can commiserate is maybe a good word with everyone else who's run into those.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so. It is so ridiculously hard to stop playing because it's such a good just one more round that one didn't count. I barely got past the first round, or like I would have done really well if I'd just done this. So, like you, just keep playing and playing, and playing yeah, yeah, I love that game.
Speaker 1:That's also on my list. I figured if it's one of the games that's on our list, then we can drop that game and pick a different game. Ooh okay. So I think this next game is probably on your list as well. I'm ready, so then you can probably drop it off your list. For me, the next game I'm talking about is Dungeons of Hinterberg.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's on the list.
Speaker 1:I love that game. I burgerberg yeah, that's on the list. I love that game. I love the art in this game, um, the. The premise is like interesting, where you're going to this town for like a vacation and you're gonna go like go adventuring in these, in this it's like amusement park kind of thing, like that's what it feels like right, like the mayor knows like oh yeah, like this is what we're known for now, like like it's not even that the mayor knows it's like, the mayor is like.
Speaker 2:That is their main strategy for getting people to this town yeah, it's like I I I've spoken with the developers and I've always loved this game since it was first revealed. It is such a interesting comment on commercialism and like how the modern world works and functions and in some cases is extremely bizarre. But the basic idea of dungeons of hinterberg is in this town, hinterberg, um, I think it was like seven years ago or something in the game lore. Um, suddenly these dungeons just appeared out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:Magic monsters, real live dungeons just appeared, um, and so, of course, they became a tourist attraction yeah, yeah, yeah, um, as they should right, yeah and I asked people, I asked the developers if they thought in the real world, if, if, like in my backyard a dungeon popped up, do you think people would be interested in going there?
Speaker 2:Like well, yeah, I mean you think about the amount of people, like they likened it to space tourism and how billionaires are kind of throttling that and would be the first one sort of involved in money, would be involved in that somehow, um, but they also likened it to like just people who are thrill seekers in real life, people who go off and do wild things that, like, I would never, ever try to do in my my life, like of course people are going to be excited and interested to to live out this adventure.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, so it is one half dungeon delving, getting magical powers, finding out puzzles uh, getting past environmental blockades, fighting bad guys, and then one half social sim you are going around and like making friends and and having a good, having a good vacation yeah, well, that's the thing I love about this, because there's like there's a deeper story in there. Where this is, you know, the main character is somebody who works at a law firm, right, is that what she does? Yes, yes. And she, she feels like she needs to do this to prove to herself that she can do this and like, kind of get away from her, her everyday life, which is so fascinating, right, like.
Speaker 1:And then the first dungeon I don't think this is a spoiler, because it's. It's like, right away in the game, it's your tutorial dungeon, but the first dungeon, like, something bad happens, like this earthquake happens, and she gets knocked out and they, they take her to safety and the mayor is like oh, everything's fine, don't worry about it, it's okay, it's okay, like, you know, we're fine, we're fine. And she questions if she should continue to do this. At that point she's like should I just go back? And she's like no, no, I have to press on. Right, and I just think that's really interesting.
Speaker 2:And again, talking about the tourism thing, right, like, there's something going on here that that's unsettling yeah, and it's dangerous, yeah, and yet people like flock to the city and be like, oh, like, hey, you're an adventurer, oh great, cool. And in fact, in the first area that you, because there are four overworlds with um 25 dungeons total scattered throughout um. In the first overworld there's kitty land which implies that so many people are bringing their children to these dungeons that they had to have a place to put them. I love that.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic yeah, uh, yeah, it's good. It's a good game and the and the it's. It's also like. When you streamed it, I thought like it was interesting, because you said that people likened it to like Zelda games, and I would say yeah, because I think there's puzzles in the game. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't see the connection that heavily Like. A lot of people use it, I think probably for SEO. Yeah, I'm just throwing that out there, yeah, yeah. Maybe, if you connect it to like Breath of the wild, like shrines maybe yeah, yeah yeah, um, a lot of people connected to persona because of the like going into dungeons and then socializing, sort of things yeah um, but yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:I think what sets it apart, though, is really there is a very interesting meditation on reality, the worlds that we come from, the commercialism of life, greed, and what that means to make magic a monetary commodity yeah for people.
Speaker 2:and then what makes a good vacation? Like looking into yourself and seeing. Like why am I? Is it absurd that I am waking up every day? Is it equally absurd that I am on this adventure like vacation, as is this absurd to wake up every day to go to a grinding job that I hate for the rest of my life and that is what my life is about?
Speaker 2:Like there is a lot of very interesting meditation on that topic, which gets really deep, and I don't know how far you are into the game, but it gets. The climax of the story actually really pulls you as a person apart, with a choice that you have to make between commercialism but at the same time, like real life, people who really have to make a living have to. Like this tourism is propping up the security of a lot of people in this town versus the things that you're talking about, like is this safe? Is this something we should allow to happen? And it's like a really interesting conundrum when you get to one particular part. I think after that climax, the decision is sort of like there is sort of a correct answer, um, but yeah, I just really love the moments where, like at a scenic spot in one of the overworlds- yeah like four of the overworlds.
Speaker 2:You've got like five different scenic spots in each overworld you can choose to just, instead of going to a dungeon, just sit down and sit with your thoughts yeah, and I think those are some of my favorite parts of this game yeah, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm not that far, uh, as you mentioned, um, but I I do love this game. It's very good, it's very fun, so, uh, so that was my next pick. What's your, what's your? Uh, this is number three.
Speaker 2:Now I think we're on third I think we're on three okay um, I have to shout out lorelei and that laser eyes yeah, okay, I have not played it yet.
Speaker 1:I haven't. Oh, it's so good, but I need to play. You know, and the the phenomenon of all these people taking notes and sharing, like that, they're taking all these notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you look at people's notebooks they look insane. You look like you're planning a murder, like you don't want anyone to look, but at the same time you're just like if you have another person who has played and you show them your notebook, they they will recognize 100 where you are in the game and what you're doing, what you're trying to figure out. It's so much fun. Um, for anyone who does not know, lorelie and the laser eyes is a kind of spiritual successor to like a silent hill type game, but there is no horror, there is no combat.
Speaker 2:It is puzzles it is a puzzle game through and through, um. So you, lorelei, come to a kind of decrepit old hotel, um, having been invited by an artist, a fellow artist. You are also an artist, um, promising his magnum opus and you're going to be helping create it, um, but when you walk in, you're kind of perhaps part of what is happening, perhaps a victim of what is happening, um, and you slowly kind of unravel. It hits so meta, so quickly, um, that there's just a lot you can deepen, you can dig in very deep to what might be happening in the game. It's one of those games that's extremely clever, um. And then note taking is not because the game is so tough that you need to like take notes, but it is spatially a lot easier to write things down than have to like keep it all in your memory. But the game has a really lovely mechanic that anytime you find like a hint or a clue for something in the game, you have it cataloged in the menu immediately.
Speaker 2:so anytime you come up and you're like, oh, um, this is a four digit number that might help with a lock, combination lock somewhere, and later on you find a combination lock and you're like, oh, what was that number? You don't have to run back to the place and find it, it's literally in your notes. So you just go through and it'll say like door combination lock or whatever, and you're like, okay, that's the number. Well, why?
Speaker 1:why are all these people taking notes? Then, if it's in your, if it's in your menu, why to take notes?
Speaker 2:um, it's the spatial reasoning sort of thing for me, okay. Um, so you're not the only one.
Speaker 1:I've seen a lot of people posting that they're pages on pages of no pages of just you look wild.
Speaker 2:Um, and yeah it's. It is a game that is meant. It is designed so that you do not have to do that okay, I think there is just some fun in doing it too okay of like okay, let me just work this out, let me just okay, I'm gonna picture it on a page, um, and then, once you start doing it, then you can't stop and you have your notebook next to you every time uh, so go ahead.
Speaker 2:I do mean to go ahead it's a great game, too, for gamers, because it plays with gaming yeah past and sort of your expectations of what's going to happen and play around with um, you're sure a bad thing's going to happen here, but then you just find a dog to pet you know like yeah yeah it messes with you uh, am I?
Speaker 1:am I going to be? Is this going to stump me too much that I'm going to get frustrated?
Speaker 2:okay, okay it is not. It is one of those games that is brilliant at making it seem like a genius would have to do it, but gives you all of the clues necessary and you just have to put them together like a door that can't you can't open and you don't know how. If you don't immediately know, like oh, I remember that combination, then you've reached a place that you just don't have the answer to yet and it's okay to go off and do something else I think one of the hardest things about this the intro to this game it's like the first 15 minutes is a real info dump of like.
Speaker 2:Here's a lot of like books and notes and reading posters and things that populate your menu so that later you can like oh, I remember reading that, um, but I fear that people will see that and think I'm getting all this stuff and I don't have any. I don't know what to do with it. I must be missing something.
Speaker 2:But that first 15 minutes really is just an info dump and your first puzzle doesn't start until you um go back to the entrance of the hotel. So like, essentially you, you roam all around the hotel and then you come back and you're like, okay, now the game really begins wow, okay, okay I'm so excited, roger I know I had to, I had to play it.
Speaker 1:I mean, uh, I have it on the switch. So I mean I plan to when I go to, to pax, I plan to, you know, play some games outside of the games we're playing at pax, so it plays good on switch actually yeah okay, uh, actually, this is one of those games, though, that I wanted. Unfortunately, our nice TV died but, I, wanted my wife and I to play that game because my wife loves this kind of games you know she loves.
Speaker 2:I ended up playing it with my spouse as well. When you have someone playing with you who is your opposite in like knowledge, like I'm very I'm very good at spatial reasoning, I'm very good at uh, hanging on to history and words and kind of little facts and things, whereas my partner is very um math oriented, and so it was like, anytime we needed anything on either side, one of us, one of us was strength in that area yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to, because, like, she has all of that and I have none of that, so she'll be getting all the answers and I'll be just sitting there saying, I think, so
Speaker 2:I think that's right probably most of the most of the answers are just like so obvious, like okay but it's like you're gonna overthink it and they won't figure it out and be like I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 1:I'm looking forward to that. Um, all right, so for me, this might be on your list as well. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna say this next game um, I'm I've only started playing it, but I've enjoyed it so far. I've seen a lot of video of it too, and I started playing it. I saw the video. I'm like I have to play this game a ranger. A ranger is very good, it is very good there are times, uh, where I was like I can't figure this puzzle out and then somehow I figured it out.
Speaker 2:I'm like oh, oh, okay, that worked 99% of the time, if you can't figure it out, it's because I've forgotten that I can wrap around.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's the thing. There's moments where it's like, oh, oh, I'm on the other side of that now. Oh, now this works, I get it. Okay, now I'm going to pull this over here. Okay, this is working now. So the premise is that you are this child that has special powers, or a curse depending on how you look at it, yeah, exactly, and wherever they move, they shift things around.
Speaker 1:It kind of reminds me of those games where you'd have those cars and you had to kind of shuffle things around, or kind of like a Rubik's cube in a way, right, because you're shuffling things and moving things and you have to arrange certain things.
Speaker 1:Um, a ranger, a ranger, uh, and it's, it's very cute in the beginning, uh, because you can see how this power can be disruptive, where somebody's like working on a ladder and then you move the ladder and they fall and of course they're mad at you because they've fallen off the ladder but it's like I can't help that when I move, the world moves with me exactly, uh, but yeah, it's very, it's very unique, like I've never played anything quite like this before, uh, and the puzzles are, um, I think that's one of the things like. It's interesting how you said like how lorelei and laser eye, they have all this 15 minutes of like getting all this information, where a ranger, you're just kind of dumped right in all, right, here you go figure it out, right and uh, I mean they do give some tutorial, but it's still I mean, but it's a tutorial that's like so minimal yeah, it is it starts.
Speaker 2:The splash screen itself is basically the tutorial and it's like this is how you do it yeah, and there you go, good luck yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I thought that was really interesting that yeah, the right away in the beginning you're just like okay, you're gonna, you're gonna be this, this is how this works, but yeah, so I'm not very far in it, but what I've played so far I really enjoy, and it's a wholesome game, so I like it.
Speaker 2:It's wholesome. It's got some just absolutely absurd points to it real biting commentary on the nature of um social media, on the nature of the internet and the disconnection of people who do not go out and see each other. Um, on belonging and feeling like you belong somewhere and um, yeah there's. I always love a game that is absurd to show a point um, and this game does that quite well yeah, and it's very pretty.
Speaker 1:It is very pretty yeah, I like it um what's your next game?
Speaker 2:I'm going to. Where am I? I'm on four yes, number four I'm getting down to like oh no, no, I have to make choices. I'm going to shout out Magical Delicacy.
Speaker 1:Oh, I want to play this game.
Speaker 2:Yes, you do, you want to play this game.
Speaker 1:I heard you talking about it, I was like, okay, I had to go play this game, so yeah, tell us about this game.
Speaker 2:It's coming out, I think, on the 15th of August. Let me double check it's already out on Steam and I play it on Steam Deck. It's not officially verified, I don't think, but it plays very well.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And then it is coming to Switch on. Let me check the date. Yeah, 15th of August.
Speaker 1:So very, very soon. So is it on xbox already, because I thought I saw it on xbox.
Speaker 2:I think it's game pass yeah yeah, okay okay, so you can get it on game pass. Um, I did play it on xbox and there was a weird I don't know if it was my tv or not, but it felt like there was a weird sort of lag. Um, maybe that's been updated since I played it, but, but I really appreciate playing with it on Steam Deck. I think it'd be a really good Switch game. But essentially what this game is is it's a combination, a very intriguing combination, of platformer and cooking sim.
Speaker 1:I know I was like this kind of sounds right up my alley, right it's so good.
Speaker 2:It is a cozy type game that follows the main character, who is a witch, and she grew up in the north, where witches are not common. She is weird. She is not made welcome. She is weird she is not made welcome um.
Speaker 2:So on her 21st birthday, she decides to leave her past behind and go to the big city. Um, and the big city just happens to be the weirdest effing city you've ever seen, because it's literally built on a cliff side. It's kind of san francisco if you think about it, um, but it it's cliff building. This means that the only way I don't know how they got past you know regulations with this, but like the only way to get from place to place is like jumping from platforms okay um and like, sometimes there are pulley systems and elevators and and all sorts of things and ways to get around.
Speaker 2:sometimes the platforms don't show up unless it's under moonlight, because they're magical. Um, sometimes you have to get different abilities in order to go to different spaces and get to different places, but my cat is like destroying my chair behind me, so it is intriguing in just the way you get around.
Speaker 2:But, narratively speaking, you get to this new town Somehow. The mayor knows you were coming and drops you off in front of a storefront and says you know, witches are apparently in this world really great with cooking like it is a skill that they're connected with, like the earth and how the ingredients work.
Speaker 2:So the sort of level one untrained witch skill just has an affinity for cooking. Um, so I I am given this shop that I have to pay back at some point, but that's kind of vague as to like you know what actually happens in this sort of yeah, like you don't have to pay interest you know okay, okay um, yeah, it is sort of a Tom Nook situation.
Speaker 2:But you go inside and you start out like you have a squatter that you have to like okay, now I have a new roommate, she's just like I'll let you live here, I guess. And you find out more and more about her and like what her situation is and she comes from being this like weird, irritant, squatter person to like oh, I'm actually really feeling for you and like what you're going through and I understand as being a person who left my home because I was not welcome and your situation, um, and that's such a cool.
Speaker 2:It's a cool arc. So you've got a lot of really lovely characters who have meaningfully deep, caring, genuine relationships. Not all, like some of them are people you aren't gonna like. Like there's a, a woman who's just like always mad. She's like always just angry at you. She's like oh you gotta, you gotta shop for free.
Speaker 2:I worked really hard for all my stuff, you know, and it's like yeah and you sort of learn more about her and like why she feels like there's a chip on her shoulder, um, and, and you would learn about all these people by taking orders and like giving them food and and like you do, like great food does connects you to people and shows you know who you are, and um, so there's this really lovely aspect of going out, having someone be like oh man, I wish I had the stew when I was sick and I was a kid and my mom used to make you know. And then, or, um, my partner is always out to see and I never get to see them and I would love to make a special event for them. So, uh, unfortunately, though, I'm a frog person and we can only eat certain things um.
Speaker 2:So some of the challenge is you start out with essentially an empty shop. You have a faucet and you have a pot.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So the first things you can create are basically just soups and stews, and that's fine, because I guess all people need right then are soups and stews.
Speaker 2:That's right, right on the menu. You start getting money as you give people more and more the orders that they want. Then you can go down to the blacksmith and they can give you a cutting board. I'm not sure why it's at the blacksmith, but cutting board is one of the first things you'll get. You get an oven. You get more and more intricate sort of things. I think the the last thing that I recently got is like an enchanter shrine, essentially so I can enchant my ingredients oh yeah, it's really cool yeah and it gets more and more intricate.
Speaker 2:So, like when you start out, all you have to do is put everything into a pot and cook it, but then, as you go on, you get like, okay, this combat, this order, needs to have something that has been put through the dryer, so like you have um, dried, sun-dried tomatoes, or something um or a juicer, so that you have almond milk um so you need something that's been dried, some. You need almond milk. You need something that's been enchanted. Um. Everything has a flavor.
Speaker 2:So, like some people are like, I want this soup to be sour, um but, like, in order to make soup you have to have like a creamy element, and sometimes creamy overrides sour. So you have to figure out what ingredients to put in. But in order to get those ingredients you have to make money so that you can go out and like get ingredients that are like sour ingredients. Um, so you get more and more complicated and more and more interesting things. And then on top of that is the platforming kind of metroidvania element of this game, because going to the blacksmith to get your um cutting board or what have you, it's not just a simple like I'll just walk down the street.
Speaker 2:It's literally like I have to figure out how to hop correctly to get to my destination, like I have to physically have the skill to get there oh my gosh um, and on top of that, then there is a deeper narrative of two other witches I come across are feuding for some particular reason, and I have been thrust in the middle of that so there is a whole nother drama that's going on so there's a lot of really cool and you work all of this out, like when you help one of the witches for the first time um, she gives you a double jump.
Speaker 2:So now I can now access totally new places, new merchants for new ingredients, so I can make more and more things, but also more clients, so I can make more money. I start to open up. Um, I am able to open up the shop so that I can just sell things from my shop, so I don't have to have orders directly from people, so I'm just getting passive income, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So it's a really cool built-in, intricate, heartfelt cozy, slightly challenging, Like it's not a very hard platformer, like it's never going to be like pixel perfect. But it is a metroidvania in the sense that you are barred off from certain places until you get uh, certain abilities, and you don't get those abilities until you meet people and you help certain people. Um, also, I just like making tea in games, I've decided so I have like every tea recipe available okay, okay are there.
Speaker 1:Is there combat in this game at all, like when you're platforming around?
Speaker 2:no, I don't think so okay I have not run into it, I have been playing for a long time. I think the closest thing you have to like combat is like there are weeds that are thorny. But like you don't have health and you don't, anytime you like, die like you can fall off a cliff. But, you just repopulate back up to the last solid earth you were on.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, so it's not punishing.
Speaker 2:It's not super high stakes. Yeah, were on, okay, so it's not punishing that much. It's not super high stakes. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, that sounds fun. Yeah, that was on my list and I know you recommended that before. Yeah, because I listened to the in-console and you talked about that game and I was like oh yeah, I got to go play that game too Cool.
Speaker 1:What is this four, did we say? Is that right? Or I believe okay. So my fourth game is a game that, uh, if you listen to this podcast, you will hear the intro, uh by this, by this character, and that is the crypt master. So the crypt master uh can't pronounce my last name, uh, so that he just says it's roger's podcast. Right, you're listening to roger, um but it's very funny yeah uh, but the crypt master is really a unique game.
Speaker 1:Uh, I've never played anything like this before, um, so it's a, it's an rpg dungeon crawler. Um, a lot of influence from dungeons and dragons, yep, um, and if you haven't, I did interview, um, the one of the developers of the game, so you should go back and listen to that interview, where we talk about the writing of the game and how this game is written and just like the amount of work that went into, uh, thinking through like the different words. So the way it works is you learn words, so you're, you're zombies, like. So the crypt master is a, is a, is like this demon necromancer, and he brings you back to life. It brings this part of you for back to life, and, but you don't remember anything from your past life. You don't remember much of anything.
Speaker 2:And it's totally for altruistic reasons.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yes, of course, of course, uh. So you have to like learn through typing in words and you'll get it's like wheel of fortune. Ask the in that, in that sense, where there's, like, you know, like one of the first words you learn as, uh, joro is hit right, so it's a hit um, but the whole time you're trying to type in different words and try to figure out what exactly is going on here, um, and then there's puzzles where you'll like run into and the puzzles are my favorite we'll run into like a treasure chest and then the crypt master open it and he'll say things like uh, you have to ask him questions like what does it taste like? And he's like oh, it tastes slimy, you know and then you're like okay, what could this be like?
Speaker 1:all right, what does it feel like?
Speaker 1:and it's just, it's just fun, you know. And then and he goes into, like you know it's smooth or it's, you know, whatever the case is, and then you have to guess what it is like. You think you get like four questions, four or five questions you can ask him, and then you have to guess what it is and if you get it right then you get those letters that fill in um for your, your the word that you're trying to uncover for your character, and it's just such a unique game. And then there's a card game in the game and the card game, like I said, you should just make that as a game.
Speaker 2:It kind of slaps.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a really fun game. I didn't get it.
Speaker 1:I didn't get it at first. I was like what is going on here? And then I was like, oh, this is cool. So there's different characters that you compete against. You can actually go against a Crypt Master too, and like you have to. It's been a while since I played it. Do you remember how the card game works?
Speaker 2:The cards all have words on them and you can play them and like. Each letter just on its own does damage. So if you have like a four letter word, you're doing four damage. But like every round there's like um peak, like car, like letters, and if you hit those you act for more damage and you can collect more cards depending on the cards that you play, and it is just a really cool. It's kind of it's hard because it's sort of the inverse of how the rest of the game has worked.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it is such a fun game to play that, like I forget what the name of the card game is, but you in order to start playing with anyone, you just type. Then I think it's whatever yeah, whatever, yeah, whatever. I think the game is called whatever, whatever, yeah um, so you just go up to everyone you can possibly find and type in whatever, and see what happens
Speaker 1:and sometimes they'll play and then sometimes they won't. But yeah, it's such a cool game and and so when I was talking about, when I interviewed them and I asked about, like how do you like, when you, when you're thinking through like all this stuff, cause, like the crit master is saying all these words, right, and they literally just read through a dictionary of every word with you know, like aardvark, and just just started like going through the list, it was really fascinating to hear that. And I asked you know, they said this happened during the pandemic and I asked the question like a lot of the recording was during the pandemic and I asked would this game have not been made if it wasn't for the pandemic? And he, he said that was an interest.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting question because because of the fact that they were isolated and they had all this time to do all this reading of all these words, right, um, but yeah, yeah, and it's not just words you would find in a in a dictionary either, like some of the funniest reactions you get from the crypt, master are like slang words that you just type in to see what happens. Yes, one of my favorite was his reaction to riz oh, uh-huh, oh and I'm like how did you?
Speaker 2:you had to not only sit down through the dictionary, but then you had to sit down and like, okay, what are all of the words people might use?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, and it's crazy sometimes there are no reactions.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's like why did you say that? Yeah but uh like startling amount of time. There is an actual reaction to what you are saying.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, it's such a good game and I and the the drawings are really good too because like it's this pencil, like. It reminds me very much of like when when you're a kid and you're drawing your own at least maybe I, I don't know, maybe other people didn't do this, but I drew my own like dungeon dragons maps, right, a kid, and you're drawing your own, at least, maybe I don't know, maybe other people didn't do this, but I drew my own Dungeons Dragons maps, right, and you just take the black marker and you're just kind of coloring it in and you're doing and kind of scribbling it in. Their art is much better than my art, but it reminds me very much of a Dungeons Dragons homebrewed type game.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it has that very feel to it and the voice acting is so good in this game.
Speaker 2:It is so good, it's so good. You're constantly like the, the. The objective you're trying to hit is to get out of like hit. Get to the world above essentially so.
Speaker 2:You're just continuously going up and up and up levels yeah and trying to figure out how to get out, and I'm sure that the necromancer that uh brought you back from the dead has no reason to leave the world of the underworld no, no, I mean, it's all just good, and that's the other fun thing about this game is that you are playing the bad guys.
Speaker 1:You're playing not good people.
Speaker 2:I mean one of the first things you do in order to save the game. You have to desecrate a shrine to the life goddess. You literally have to desecrate her shrine.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that so much, yeah, and then. But some of those puzzles are really hard too and just it's fun. There's just so much stuff. I could talk about this game, but it's such a fantastic game and I know I've seen a lot of people talk about it. I just, you know, if you haven't played it, you should play it Because it's really good.
Speaker 2:It's very good, like you said, there's no other game like this.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, and it's just the amount of effort that they went into to put this game together is unbelievable. So, uh, one last thing I'll say about that, can I? Can I just quickly. Uh, it was funny when, when I was talking to to them and talking about the, the voice of the crypt master, and he talks, and you can hear this on the podcast, but he talks about how he he used to do voices for his reading to his kids, like you know, and at bedtime, and one of them was a script master type voice and I just thought that was really, you know, funny, like you know, because how cute is that?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, it's like when your kids grow up, they will have this game. Yeah, have that voice for the rest of their life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a very sweet thing yeah, and, and he wasn't going to be the voice actor. Actually he wasn't going to be the voice actor. They were foolish, I know, um, but they, he, he, you know, because he wrote the game and then he wanted to read a couple lines and he, he really wanted that role, but, uh, but initially that he wasn't going to be. They're going to get a voice actor to do it and the other voice actors are very, very good, but I, I can't imagine this game.
Speaker 2:Without the Crypt.
Speaker 1:Master. Yeah, without the Crypt Master, that's so good. Okay, your fifth game.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm looking at my list, my short list, and I'm going to have to make such a hard decision here to decide what to shout out, because there are so many good games that have come out just recently. So I'm gonna I'm going to air towards recency bias, okay, and I am going to shout out thank goodness you're here oh yeah, this is another game that's on my list that I need to play.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of games on my list that I need to play.
Speaker 2:It's literally, I think, the game that I am going to be playing on stream tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, yes, you are yes.
Speaker 2:Roger's, like you will.
Speaker 1:You will. I've seen the votes. You will.
Speaker 2:It is so funny. It is funny in a 360 kind of way. It is funny in a 360 kind of way. It is funny visually. Every single part of this game is a visual gag of some sort. Either it's what your character looks like, the situation they are in something on the wall, logos written somewhere, like anywhere you look, is hilarious. Um, especially the art style being this lovely hand-drawn kind of very cartoony looking yeah, yeah um, it is visual, sound, wise.
Speaker 2:It is very funny. Constantly people are talking around you um. Most of the time I don't actually understand the innuendos a lot of the times I catch them, but sometimes because they're so british slang yes like I'm like okay, I just don't get what you're saying, but it sounds bad yes, yes, yes, matt, I think matt berry does a voice in this game too right, yeah, yeah um it is.
Speaker 2:It feels funny like I don't. I don't know if that will translate. I don't know how to explain exactly. There are only really two buttons to this game jump and slap.
Speaker 1:Uh, it's really, it's that's really all you need in life, honestly yeah, so like that's how you get through everything.
Speaker 2:So you're like slapping around inanimate objects, breaking things, pushing things off the sides of things. Um, if you come up against people, that's how you are interacting with them. You're slapping them. It's just the silliest thing yeah yeah, and it's got a mixture of like british humor. It's so monty python, so it's a lot of um, just absurdity. It's a lot of under the radar kind of. This is actually quite silly, but like played kind of straight yeah um, it has the elements of straight up humor.
Speaker 2:Obviously you're slapping people and that's very funny. Um, it has situations in which you are so freaked out that you're like I, I finished a fever a meat fever dream, which is like it's kind of horrifying, but it's really funny those are the worst, though.
Speaker 1:I just want to tell you those are the worst fever dreams to have. That is, that is a true thing.
Speaker 2:You will go through this and you will know. Um, but it's just, and it's also situationally funny, because you are playing as a like a salesman. They never quite explain what it is you're you're doing exactly, but you are. You have a meeting with the mayor. The meeting isn't for another couple of hours, so instead of just waiting in the waiting room for a couple of hours, you go and you walk around this northern English town and any time you walk into a new scene, someone will turn to you and say, thank goodness you're here, and like some sort of ridiculous problem.
Speaker 1:It sounds very British, though, though doesn't? It sounds very like, very monty python, like you said, yeah, yeah, it's just like it's and your character.
Speaker 2:Just this is like okay like I walk into a butcher shop and they have problems with their meat and they need me to beat the meat. You know, like it's just layer and layer and layer on top of funny oh my gosh, I gotta play this game yeah, it's so good and I think I also want to point out how clever the developers are.
Speaker 2:Because there are gags on top of gags and it's and they don't counteract each other. They're very good. But also because of the the humor of game, you cannot stop to sort of explain things to players, cause that would sort of bring down the hilarity of the fact. So they manage very cleverly to always get you to do exactly what you need to do, even if you don't know exactly what that is, and that is a hard thing to do. Exactly what you need to do, even if you don't know exactly what that is, and that is a hard thing to do that is a very hard accomplishment to design a game in which you do not explicitly explain anything to the player.
Speaker 2:Um, and that it's such a recipe for the joke.
Speaker 1:But that's part of the joke, right, it's part of the joke because it's like this can't be what I oh my gosh, this is what I have to do.
Speaker 2:So making sure that people don't feel lost, don't feel frustrated, like. That's a really hard thing to do when you're not explicitly communicating with people. And they manage it and that's a very like. A lot of people will talk about the humor and it definitely deserves that, but the design skills here are very, very good, just being able to do that. So I am shouting out thank goodness you're here as my final, so far best games of 2024.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice. So far, best games of 2024. Nice, Nice. So for my last game, I have a couple too that I want to choose from, but I think I'm going to go with a game that wasn't probably on a lot of people's radar and I really enjoyed this game and it's a roguelike rhythm game, Interesting. And when I first played this game I was like I'm not sure, I'm not sure if this is for me. But then there was a demo and then I was offered a review code and I was like, okay, I'll give it another try. Okay.
Speaker 1:And this game is called Beat Slayer and I just want to show Jill. The audience can't see this, except for Jill, but this is really cool. They sent a cassette tape of the game, or the music.
Speaker 2:Do you have a cassette player?
Speaker 1:No, but this is the best part. No, I don't. It's actually a USB, isn't that cool?
Speaker 3:And it has all the music on it. Oh, that is cool.
Speaker 1:So it takes place in this dystopian Germany after the fall of the wall and this guy kind of takes over in Dietrich a very German name and he basically outlaws music and makes everything miserable for everybody and your brother. You're this character and your brother was kidnapped by him and his henchmen this guy's henchmen and you have to go through these levels and basically defeat these robots, but through the beats of music. So, being on the beat, she's listening to the headsets and this music pumping through and you have to play this game with headsets. I mean, you don't have to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's much better, like it's kind of the purpose of the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly, and and then your attacks do better when you're on beats and and, uh, it's just. And then you, you know, you can get better scores when you have, you know, a combo going on with all your beats and it's a roguelike game. So I mean, if you're not a roguelike fan, this is not going to be up your alley, but you know, it reminded me a lot of like hades in a way. Uh, in regards to they can pick up different weapons and different, and you can see the pass if you go to different paths, again like, oh, I can get this weapon here which will augment my kicks, which is actually something that I want to use, and blah, blah, blah, and you can pick up new weapons and such.
Speaker 1:It's really good and the art is really good and the music is fantastic. Um, it, it did. It came out earlier this year and I it just didn't come, like a lot of people just I don't know, fell off the radar, but it's really good. I give it an A when I reviewed it because I really enjoyed this game a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was looking at it. It's got 93% positive of all time on Steam, so it looks like you're not alone. People are liking this game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good, it's a yeah, beat slayer, beat slayer. The music is fantastic and the art is really good too and the game plays really well, but it's actually apparently this game is Joel. I'll just show you the back of this.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I don't know if I can say this, but it says Slay the Robots, slay the Beat F Dietrich. It's very good. So I don't know if they if they're actually from germany, I think they might be actually the developers. I'm not 100 sure, but um yeah, check that game out I'm looking at it right now.
Speaker 2:Maybe I should go check this out.
Speaker 1:Heck yeah I don't know, I don't. I don't have a steam deck, so I don't know if it's steam deck playable. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have a Steam Deck, so I don't know if a Steam Deck Playable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know what would push you over the edge to pick up a Steam Deck.
Speaker 1:Money. So if there was a huge sale, essentially yeah yeah, and there was one before, and I'm really upset with myself that I didn't. There was a really good sale probably middle last year. And I am really upset that myself, that I didn't. There was a really good sale probably middle last year, and I am really upset that I didn't buy one. I mean, I should have bought one and I didn't.
Speaker 2:I think I did pick it up during that sale. Yeah, and I really love my Steam Deck.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I really want there to be like a Steam Deck Lite.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's really what I'm waiting for.
Speaker 1:I want to be able to hold this thing and it's it's chonky, it's chonky boy it is. I mean. So you know, our friend sebastian has one and he took he, he brought it to west pax west last year and and he's like you got to get one, you got to get one. And I was like, yeah, I know I need to get one, um, but it is really bulky. That thing looked really big compared to even my switch.
Speaker 2:It was like oh yeah, bigger than my switch, much bigger, much heavier yeah, I think the thing that it is good for is like lying in bed or lying on the couch where you have support yeah, I can't imagine like going about and like holding it while I'm like walking or something yeah, yeah, agreed, um, but that is on my short list of things that I want, for sure.
Speaker 1:So, um, all right. So that was. That was uh the best game so far, uh many great games to come many great games to come um, which will have you back later on in the year to talk about those other games I'm sure, we'll compare them, we'll see which is what what. What now?
Speaker 2:is what finally makes the final cut that's right.
Speaker 1:Right, um the the topic I wanted to talk about. Do you have time? Do you have time for this topic? Let's go um the impact of streaming and social media on indie games. So I gave you a couple ideas to talk about, and this is the topic that we just we decided to discuss about. So I want to talk about things of like how does the platform of Twitch and YouTube change things and how has social media influenced it, and even I have some ideas, but I guess I'd talk about even strategies for indie developers, how to leverage some of these platforms as well. So I'll start with you, though, I guess how has streaming and social media impacted indie games?
Speaker 2:I think it's such an interesting question because the indie council that came out today. I actually got a little bit into my thoughts about social media, but just talking about uh streaming in general, some of the most successful indie games of uh recent memory, like you think about among us it's such a great example for this among us came out like two, three years to absolute silence no one knew what it was.
Speaker 2:People were not playing it, um, and it would have been under any other circumstance, just a game that had its fan base, um, but didn't break into the wider consciousness, even in the indie space.
Speaker 2:But then I think, it was probably during the pandemic is really what pushed a lot of what streaming went through the roof. People were trying to find things to play together, and so it was kind of tripped over by these bigger streamers who were trying to find ways to connect with their audiences and other people. And then, of course, among Us is now one of the most financially and like audience wise popular games of the indie space space. Uh, and you cannot look in any way at the success of this game and not attribute it in some ways to streaming because people are able to see it and to see it played.
Speaker 2:Um, the amount of games that I stream, that people who are in my audience and the people who are in my audience are people who are plugged into the space. These are people who are in my audience and the people who are in my audience are people who are plugged into this space. These are people who are paying attention to indie games. Um, who have seen me play a game and go oh, I might pick this up now.
Speaker 2:And it's like it's wild, the amount that you can uh write all of this stuff but somehow or and like you can talk about it on a podcast like this and you can try to impart your enthusiasm and interest, but until people see the game being played, um, it doesn't. A lot of the times doesn't click or they just don't put together, like when you talk about a game that is, uh, one half fighting dungeons, one half like making friends yeah like that can be a really hard game for people to kind of wrap their head around.
Speaker 2:So if they see you actually playing it. They're like, oh, I get what this is now and I want to jump into that. Uh, and indie games, because it is such an innovative space.
Speaker 2:It can be really hard to explain to people what these games are like it is very tough to talk about what crit master is and how, why that is fun yeah but when you get into, I've seen like so many different people streaming this, but like janet garcia was one of my favorites where the chat is coming together to try to help you figure out all the puzzles and come up with the words.
Speaker 2:And now there's a sense of community and it rise of social media is also contributing to the continuous expansion and booming of popularity of indie games. Yeah, um, and I say I want to switch over to social media. I say social media is a part of that for a large purpose. Large point of this is because one of the major problems for indie games and indie developers is marketing yeah marketing, it takes money.
Speaker 2:you have to know the right people, and if you're the kind of person who's just like, hey, I just wanted to make this little game, I'm not someone who knows the people, who, like, knows how to send things out to outlets or to, like, make my game sound cool, having a social media following where you can just put up a picture of your game and a link to the steam page and you can pick up people from there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like is a hundred percent influencing things. And what I pointed out, um on the indie council up now you can go check it out is it seems to me more and more that indie developers are leveraging this to put out huge news instead of waiting to have to pay someone to be in some kind of showcase, to have to even if it's a free showcase to jostle and sort of share the spotlight with other games. Especially if it's like a situation where it's a mixed AAA indie showcase, where the AAA crowd is typically not looking for an indie experience, it means a lot that they can just throw their news up on a random Tuesday. Nothing else has got oxygen If it's a big enough announcement, like Crypt Custodian just announced that it's coming out August 27th. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Then you get outlets covering that, because there's nothing else going on at that moment. Yeah. Instead of like hey, it's E3 and Crypt Custodian is coming out, but also so is the next God of War and the next Assassin's Creed. Yeah, yeah. And when you're an outlet, there is an obvious choice. Like you can't cover everything, and the clicks are going to go towards the bigger games. So it is a very interesting tool, but also twist it a little bit it also gives players a direct line to developers yes, which can be good and could be very bad.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, um, if you are the kind of person who's just like hey, I'm just a person and I'm typing programming in my off time to make this little game and suddenly people are threatening my life because they don't like this feature that I created, that's wild. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I have seen a very noticed uptick of developers exploding in popularity and not being able to handle what that means as a person not not even people who are like threatening or mean in any way, but like as anyone who's put out any creative endeavor.
Speaker 2:It always kind of stings you when people are like, well, this is dumb, obviously they're being lazy for this.
Speaker 2:Like people say things kind of off off the cuff or like the only thing they talk about is like criticizing, like oh, this pixel isn't the way it should be, or the audio could be so much better, and even if they think that these are helpful comments, unfortunately, as people, we tend to air grievances much more readily than compliments. So, as the indie creator, it might look to you like you just got 5 million new followers and 4 million of them are saying something critical about your creation, and I think that that is also part of this uptick too. You have to keep both of those in mind, because it's a hard. It's a hard place out there. Yeah and yeah, I think there is a lot to dig into as to how social media, how streaming, how the cult of personality that is inherent in both of these things intertwines with indies in a way. Indies have always sort of been about the cult of personality. Like the early indie hits, have developers that you know the name of.
Speaker 1:Jeff Minter like, for instance, right Like Llamasoft.
Speaker 1:Eric Varone is Stardew valley like yeah, you know these people because, part of it is you selling you yeah, yeah, yeah, I well, you know it's interesting, um, because that was the thing I was thinking. Too right is this direct communication with developers, whether it be on social media or Discord. To me, I always thought that was interesting. Like, hey, we have our own Discord and most times, most people on the Discord are fans of the studio and they want to support the studio. But every once in a while you'll see like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I don't like this, or whatever right. But even Steam, even Steam has a direct communication with a lot of see like blah, blah, blah, blah, I don't like this, or whatever right. But even steam, even steam like, has a direct communication with a lot of these indie developers, just by able to communicate with them and leave messages and stuff.
Speaker 1:And, uh, mike strollart, uh, the creator of of uh below the stone, uh, I thought it was really interesting because I interviewed him about, uh, social media and like in getting feedback right around on that kind of stuff, and he said, you know, he had one person give feedback. Um, you know, I want more, there's not enough here, I want more of this. And he's like he spent 80 hours.
Speaker 1:He looked at the thing, you know he spent 80 hours in this game, and if that's their comment of like, this is not not enough, I want more. I'm like great, just wait, we got more coming for you, right? But it takes thick skin, though, to be able to take some of those comments and be like oh cool, like you didn't like the hitbox on that, well, we'll fix that and we'll make it better Right, better right, but.
Speaker 2:And just the, the, that comment, in particular, that example. Can you imagine having put in 40 hours that week, 50 hours, 60 hours doing back-breaking work of like no one's gonna see this, no one's gonna appreciate how? And then the first comment you see is I want more. Yeah, like that's gotta be. That's an. That's a great example of someone who doesn't mean to be mean in any way.
Speaker 2:And they're not but like it's that sort of thing that will really needle into you, and there was a great back and forth between the man or Lords, developers and I forget who the other developers were.
Speaker 1:You talked about that on the indie, yeah.
Speaker 2:On the show, yeah, um about this kind of exact thing of of expectation and people wanting more, and and what that means and how that drives a successful or not successful um early access and and whether or not that is a healthy relationship to have and healthy expectations to have, both as a player and as a developer.
Speaker 1:Very interesting topic to go into yeah, um well, I think there's a lot of positive things, right, I think also there's there's some things like that. I've seen that I I do get, I'm like, oh, like, for instance, like I'm gonna say this because I don't mean to sound mean, I'm not gonna point out anybody, right, but there are people that create content just to be mean, yes, and just to be just to create and like that is like they're mean-spirited kind of right, but that's their persona.
Speaker 2:And it's a weird thing because yeah, it's not even that they, they, they don't believe it necessarily. It is literally a strategy for getting attention.
Speaker 1:That we're getting attention and and this is the weird spot with people that do like streaming right um is that if you want to be kind of I hate to say this but if you want to make a name for yourself, you've got to do something kind of outrageous.
Speaker 2:My cat has, as graceful as ever, tripped into my lap but, but your cat looked very much like.
Speaker 1:This is what I this is it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is this is I'm very happy with the attention I'm getting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly fine this is fine, um, but yeah, there is. There is something about the cult of personality in the creators in not all creators, right, but I'm saying, but there are. But there is something about if you want to make a name for yourself, you got to do something that might be out crazy. You have to, like, create a persona like almost being on stage, right, and not everybody does that, because I don't I mean, I don't know my wife says, like, you do have a radio voice versus your normal voice, right?
Speaker 2:this is not the way that you would talk to me in person. Right, like I have had that opportunity before, so there is a difference. Yeah, I think Greg Miller talked about this a little bit one time, which I found it very, very insightful in the way that he normally is, and his persona, the greg miller of kind of funny uh, is not a deeply insightful person but like the greg miller, who is a human being, is super super insightful and super kind and considerate.
Speaker 2:Um, and it is interesting and I think also we talked a little bit about this back when I was at game informer that, um, I think for the best people, the personas that they have for content is who they are. It's just who they are.
Speaker 1:110 yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think I mean, I think that's probably where I think about with me, right, like, like I'm not different, I just know that I'm on stage on yeah, right, and but it's still me right but for these people that you're talking about these like sort of hate monger type?
Speaker 1:yes they will go on and they will be spitting and frothing at the mouth and angry and then like, as soon as that camera goes off, it's like I don't, I don't know, I don't care what that is whatever that is, yeah, but the outcome of that, though, is that they could be taking a game and playing that as part of their persona, and then also could possibly shine a bad light on the game because of that as well Right, of that as well right and I would think that this is probably one of the hardest things of being an indie developer is like you want your game out there, but you know that there may be you're you're allowing bad faith, yeah people in bad faith, right, you don't know, right, and you're just, even if it means in, in, you know, being a content creator or being journalist, right, like, we do get review codes, uh, and content creators also get codes for streaming and creating content.
Speaker 1:But even if they just bought the game, there could just be in bad faith to show like, oh, look at this, look how dumb this is, right, or whatever the case is. And that must be really hard and challenging for for developers, not only, uh, just the back and forth on social media, because there's that, you know, ability to hide behind things on social media, but just even the fact that you like I hate to say this because I don't mean it this way, but you can't control the narrative, right, yeah, like, the narrative is what it is, and um, I want to.
Speaker 2:This makes me think of something and I I've never created like a game, like I don't have that kind of patience. But like um, I did earlier in the year a big list for small developers who had worked with id at xbox. It was called 30 under 30, if anyone. Yeah, I had the most baffling comment I've ever had in my life and I've had meaner comments. I've had worse faith comments, um, but as far as like where the narrative goes, I'm so glad no one picked this up as like a thing, but the person had looked for two seconds at the Indianformer's socials which.
Speaker 2:I didn't start the Indianformer as a separate social media thing until I had been doing it for a while, maybe a year or two, so it's not a very uh aged social media page. So this person looked at my social media, looked at the page of social media and was like, oh so a site that's only been up for a year that lives somewhere in the bay area is putting up an Xbox list Convenient.
Speaker 2:And it was like the whole point they were trying to make was maybe Xbox themselves had concocted for a year this indie site that had like somehow the grand scheme was to put out a list of all the top creators under 30. And I was like you laugh at it, but it's like.
Speaker 2:that's the sort of thing that, like if a certain demographic of the population caught hold of the wokeness of that, might have come after me personally and you can't stop that train yeah, yeah so it's like I I understand that that's the situation you're thinking about when you're thinking the narrative that happens you have no control over and, yeah, a lot of times you couldn't even I could not have guessed that that was going to be anyone's reaction to putting out a simple list of celebrating indie developers. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:As games usually are. You can imagine the wild stuff that people just throw out there, either in bad faith or just because they're, like, journalistically illiterate and they looked at something for two seconds and think I think there are a lot of people who unfortunately think the worst possible thing you can think of Is correct.
Speaker 3:And if you believe, believe that that you are clever, yeah, and I don't?
Speaker 2:I had a little bit of that when I was younger, like teenagers, like oh, this must be for this reason, like, and I I broke myself of that um, to be a little more optimistic about life. But it is a widespread like critical thinking is not encouraged in a lot of ways on social media, um and spreading. If that particular narrative had caught, that could have been a very sensational story, and sensational is really what populates on social media so yeah you can only hope that my cats are being silly.
Speaker 2:You can only hope that the sensation comes from your game and how sensational your work is yeah but you can't promise that that's what people will try to sensationalize yeah, yeah, uh, that's, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:I never had. I never had anything like that with gamer heads, which I'm thankful that I haven't. Um, uh, but I also think that might mean like hey, you made it, congratulations, right. But yeah, it is, it is interesting and I just I don't know. I mean, it's an interesting thought too that I think video games, movies and TV, I think all kind of fall into this, like this, this could either be good or bad press kind of situation with social media, right, yeah, you don't see this with art, like, I don't see everybody saying like, oh, the mona lisa, let me tell you, I don't think she's smiling at all, I think she's being stuck up. You know like nothing, like nothing, like that ever happens, like. Or you know, like uh, or books, even for that matter, I don't, I don't.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe I just follow the wrong social media I wonder if it happens in books that are ongoing currently oh sure, like, yeah, like series, maybe, yeah like a game of thrones or something which is still ongoing and people are constantly saying stuff about that.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's with the things like games and like any kind of art that you take in, especially with games, though, because it has, unlike anything else, an element of you in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:There is an invitation to make it yours there is a piece of you in it yeah um, so there is a stronger, perhaps, pool for people to believe to some degree that they have that right to whatever the next thing is, you know, whatever is. If it's an early access game like I have the right to say what I want out of this game because in some ways I've paid for early access, I've dumped my time and identity in some ways into this game, so I have the right to say what I want out of it. I I want more than 80 hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I just want to riff off of that for a minute because to me, because I worked in software development and in my current role, I kind of do, but it's different. It's still development, but it's not quite the same, but it's still development of content, but the hardest thing in still development, but it's not quite the same, but it's it's still development of content, but the hardest thing in software development. And this is so I'm going to get a little nerdy here, right. Software development.
Speaker 1:Okay, ready, but you have different roles and one of them being a product owner. There's a, there's a, there's a person that's called the product owner. They own the final say on for the dev team of whether things are prioritized, what goes in, what doesn't go in. But if you didn't have a product owner, you would get all these users just coming to you with all these crazy ideas of like how to build something Right. And this happened to me where I had one of my QA people come up to me and say you know, actually the user said that they would rather have us do this because they've been like, but your user is not my stakeholder and therefore I'm not going to just listen to this person. I understand that they would like this, but we're not going to build that because that's not what we're building.
Speaker 1:Right, but it takes, but when you have social media and you don't have, if you don't have, a strong like dev team or even personality right To weed out the noise, it is hard because you're just going to get bombarded with a bunch of stuff. And this is like, what do I pay attention to? Like, is this a real concern? Should I actually implement x, y and z?
Speaker 1:because that person said I should um yeah I don't know, it's a weird, that's weird, weird thing. Sorry, I got a little nerdy there but that's 100.
Speaker 2:No, I get that, that is. That is what we are talking about is yeah there is a lot of I mean in some ways understandable interest in and feeling of ownership, uh, for people, but but I think game making in particular is such a opaque process and what happens during it and for a lot of the industry is very secretive, so it does kind of promote that as well. So you get a lot of people who are like, just hit that button for better graphics.
Speaker 1:You know yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like we. I am certainly not well versed in the making of games. I know enough to know that it is difficult. I know enough to know how the process works for, um, some ideas about marketing, some ideas about, like, talking to press and dealing with gaming conventions, and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know enough to be able to see some things as like that's. There's no way you could do that because of this and this and this, and sometimes those comments, a hundred percent are because people are not there. There's a curtain and it's an intentional curtain that's put there and and no one could be expected to know behind it. And and for those, I try to address those and be like okay, I see that you're you're asking a question.
Speaker 2:Let me explain what that process actually looks like. I get that actually a lot, not just the space for covering games is also very secretive, so I get that a lot for what it's like to be a journalist and I try very hard to be authentic and talk to people about what I can't, yeah. But there's, there are people who are just being not great, people, you know, who are just like well, I could do it and I'm like, well, then do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right on ahead, nobody's stopping you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess I guess what, what, what would? What kind of advice would you give to a developer trying to navigate these platforms?
Speaker 2:I think, first, the advice I would give is not to the developer but to the populace, people at large is to even if I I went into a little monologue about one of these situations where, um, a developer got really popular and said a very ungracious thing, which I took as resulting from the stress and the bombardment of criticism that this person was not expecting, but, as a fan of the game, just wanting to, you know, be a part of the community could look at this person being ungrateful and being ungracious and be hurt by it. So I think what I would say to people at large is to treat everyone with the grace you would want yourself if you were saying something that was perhaps ill-advised. Compassion and empathy is almost always the best first reaction to anything, and I'm not great at this. All the time I try very hard. My initial reaction sometimes can be very upsetting, very upset, and then I try to step back and say, like, is this a place where I'm not giving enough compassion to another person? Giving enough compassion to another person? If it's a situation where a ceo is laying off a bunch of people because they want to buy another yacht, then they can go jump off a cliff, um. But if it is a indie developer who's like a solo or a small team and and barely making it by and and they've had a bad day, even if the thing that they have, if the thing they've said is, like you know, hurtful or harassment or something along those lines, then there's a slightly different path to take.
Speaker 2:But if it is just a reaction to mental health, like perhaps just giving them some grace and some space, like perhaps just giving them some grace and some space, um, and for developers or just basically anyone in the creative space who's putting stuff out, I don't really love telling people not to let it phase you, because it will, because you're human and that's, I think, um, a lot of times, especially women in this space just women in my space and in the journalistic space will get told not to let it bother them. Yeah, but like it's going to, and then when it does, it makes you feel bad because I should be able to let this slide off my back and it's not sliding off my back. I mean, take a break. If you need to, like, you don't have to do anything besides what you are doing. It is your project. If you need to take time, take all the time you need. I will wait forever for any of these games that people are waiting for. Like silk song pops up to head into my head like like, take your time.
Speaker 2:if that's what you need to make it work like I am desperately excited about um eric brown's next game, haunted chocolate tier. Take all the time you need for that like I will be excited about it. If it comes out next week, or if it comes out in five years, I will still be here waiting for it. So that's the best I can, best I can do yeah, um, yeah, I, I.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'll echo that. I mean for me I was. I try and it's not. I'm not good at this always, I'm gonna admit this, but I try to think positive intent right, yeah, um. But there are times where I don't have positive intent? I don't think positive intent.
Speaker 1:And then I have to remind myself, think positive, intent, and sometimes I'll see through some rant or something and then it's like, okay, there's something else going on in that person's life, right, and I need to think through that as well, because maybe that's not how they always act. And I need to think through that as well, because maybe that's not how they always act and I know I've had my moments where I'm not the most cheerful, happiest person in the world.
Speaker 2:We don't match the person we would like to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, like you said, like give them grace, the same grace that you would want people to give you. Right, I am going to say for content creators I this, this. I feel bad about saying this because of what you just said, but I I'm going to say this because this has helped me and I think it's a little bit different than just letting it roll off your back. Um, for me, what has helped me was separate my self-worth from what I create. Um, because, you know, even if gamer heads fell apart and I never did that again, like I still felt self-worth, right, and if somebody says your video sucked, I absolutely hate it.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, but me as a person, like I can separate myself from what I create and I know sometimes I'm like, yeah, you know what, that wasn't my best, best creation, or whatever the case is. I was tired and I just finished up whatever I needed to get done, right. But it's hard because, especially when you create things, because a lot of your self goes into that and it's not always the easiest thing, right. But for me, it took me a long time to separate what I do and from who I am, and that's really it's not easy.
Speaker 2:No, especially if you're someone who's the Indian former and it's me and the space I am in. That is a difficult thing especially. That's especially good advice for people in this particular horrific realm of layoffs.
Speaker 1:Of layoffs, yeah.
Speaker 2:And when you get laid off, because it's almost a when and not an if.
Speaker 1:unfortunately, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:A lot of people can't separate that and it becomes a matter of self-worth that they were laid off. But yeah, yeah, like, I think the really funny thing about opposing advice is it's sort of a like early bird gets the worm and good things come to those who wait situation, because both of those things can be true in different situations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, right, because it and and some of it is luck situation, because both of those things can be true in different situations. Yeah, yeah, right, uh, because it and and some of it is luck, like let's just right oh, so much of it is luck.
Speaker 1:So much of it is luck you know being in the right place at the right time, right, um, but yeah, so I don't know. I mean, it's like I said that's easier said than done and I would never tell anybody like, oh, just let it roll off your back because, like they've what they feel is legit, and I would never tell anybody not to feel what they feel. But I would say you are worth more than what these people are commenting. Right, like you are a valued person outside of what you create.
Speaker 2:So I know you're being very serious and a smile just came across my face, um, but like this is, this has become very therapeutic. I think we're working out some issues here.
Speaker 1:I hope everybody listening you're just letting some I understand my childhood now yeah, I can let it go I will say this you know, it took me like 46 years to come to this conclusion on my own, yeah, uh, and there are days where it's hard for me even like I'll tell you, there's stuff that I create that I'm like I don't want anybody else to see this, like I'm just gonna create it in the little corner of my own creation and then I'll just put it out there and then I'll just walk away and like just pretend it doesn't exist or something Right?
Speaker 2:I think there is some form of me that uses that as a protective shield, like no one's going to look at this and stuff up. And then when someone comments on, I'm like oh no, I know.
Speaker 1:We're not really supposed to look at that. I'm sorry, but yeah. Anyway, do you have time for just like 10 minutes to talk about?
Speaker 2:PAX. I've got 10 minutes to talk about PAX and not a minute more. I just want to make sure.
Speaker 1:Before this episode I said Jill, let's keep this to an hour.
Speaker 2:And now we're reaching the two over. No, but what did I say, Roger?
Speaker 1:I was like, if we go over your fault, it's gonna be my fault. You said no, you said it's gonna be your fault. Roger, I'll never forgive you. I'll never forget. I'll never forget that you made me stay on for two hours. Um, so we're going to pax west. Yes, this is what's kind of fun exciting about. This is the second time that we're both going to PAX West. Yes, and I wasn't sure I was going this year. I know so but you are.
Speaker 2:I always like here's the thing, roger it's probably not the best move for me to go to PAX West yeah but it's so hard to say no when you're like, hey, do you want to be on this panel? I know.
Speaker 3:I know you start getting emails from like PR, like hey, do you want to be on this panel?
Speaker 2:I know, I know you start getting emails from like pr, like hey, do you want to see this new game that's coming? Up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, I kind of really do yeah yeah and then everybody else you see is going to pax and you're like I want to see other people too I know that's the hardest part is when you see other people and you're like I would like to see those people too, because that's fun. But yes, we're going to PAX West. So last year was your first PAX, though, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was.
Speaker 1:So what would you tell people to expect?
Speaker 2:A lot of walking. Yeah, I think there will be less walking this year. If I'm, if I, I hope so, I don't think there's going to be two different buildings? I hope so. I don't think there are going to be two different buildings, I hope not. But yeah, basically what I said about PAX after I went. Pax is a very consumer-focused show, so you can expect the pageantry that goes along with that versus the industry industry focused stuff that I'm used. My cats are doing something wild. I'm trying hold on, cats go oh uh, okay, everything's fine, they're just playing.
Speaker 2:But yeah, well they're playing like on top of the desk, so it's knocking everything over that that's what cats do, though yeah, they're having a great time. They're having a good time. They don't understand why I'm upset here why? Is this here?
Speaker 1:knock that off like I had to pick this up.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you saw me pick this up earlier. Uh, that's a part of the wall back there oh, so one of my cats has torn that off the wall and was playing with it, um, so that's fun but that's that's.
Speaker 1:That's that's what cats do they're so cute they're adorable, I love them very much um, one of my favorite things about packs last year was, uh, your reaction to all the cosplays, like I remember like, oh, look at that, yeah, we were talking about some game. We do like, oh my God, did you see that costume over there? Oh my gosh, how did they do that? The, the one that the. I can't think of that, the, the, the, the, the salesperson that the in the Zelda game, what, what?
Speaker 2:what's that person's name?
Speaker 1:yeah, the outfit that they had was insane the amount of work people put into.
Speaker 2:I don't have that. I don't have that skill, I don't have that patience like um, absolutely brilliant it's one of the fun things about like it's one of the things you don't get to see during one of these industry things but yeah it's so cool good job cosplayers, one of the funniest ones last year.
Speaker 1:I don't think you're I don't think because that's a funny thing like I don't know if people know this or not, but like I'll see you and I'll be like hi jill and like we walk by and like sometimes we'd grab like food together, right, or like we'll be in the media room at the same time, but a lot of times we're just going from appointment to appointment.
Speaker 1:It's just like escalator crossing but last year there was this guy that walked in and he had the sword and of course security didn't like the fact that this guy had a sword and this thing was huge. And the guy, uh, he said the security guy it's like you have to give me, uh, the sword. And he was like, don't break that. That's a 200 sword, don't break it. And he's like, don't worry, I'm not gonna break it. I was just thinking, man, that's, that's a lot of money for your cosplay there.
Speaker 2:Um, no, it's the amount of effort you have to put in and the money you have to throw into it. I'm like, if I'm throwing that kind of money in, I don't want any effort.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, no kidding, I just want it to be done and just that's it.
Speaker 2:No, but it is a very interesting thing to be a journalist and part of the media crew in one of these shows. I think that I would go about PAX a very different way if I were just going there for fun. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But as media, you're on your feet constantly. I think one of the things that makes it so hard is that it's not set up for journalism or for media, so a lot of the times you're just cutting in line in front of people and you're standing at the booths and not sitting anywhere and like, oh, I just walked 50 miles to get here.
Speaker 2:I would rather be sitting right now yeah um, and, and it's a lot of like back to back. Okay, I'm done, I have to run and go to my next thing and maybe I'll have like five games that you of like back to back. Okay, I'm done, I have to run and go to my next thing and maybe you'll have like five games that you've played back to back and maybe a half an hour if you're lucky for eating.
Speaker 2:So you're trying to eat while simultaneously like writing down your notes so that you remember things, because it's surprising how much you forget about your experiences, even like the next day, how much you forget about your experiences even like the next day, yeah. Because the next day is going to be stuffed with a whole nother round of game to game, to game.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're not going to remember that? Oh, I'm definitely going to remember that funny thing that that developer said about that one thing yes, exactly, yeah, I it's.
Speaker 1:I would say like the the thing that I I've said this before in this podcast and this is the thing that makes me feel the worst, but it's not my fault but we have appointments like we. Like we get emails and saying, hey, we want you to come check out this game, what time can you meet with us? And like we fill up our schedule right like we, I have a calendar I fill up like here's this time, this time religiously, because if I don't immediately write down I've offered this time slot to this person.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to lose it, and today, this is such a fortuitous time to be talking. It was like, for some reason, just the kickoff of all the PAX. West emails. So whenever you guys are watching this, it's August 1st as we're recording this and PAX doesn. You guys are watching this, it's august 1st, uh, as we're recording this and pax doesn't happen until like the end of august, the beginning of september.
Speaker 2:So this is about the time period where we are planning our schedules yeah um, and I promised myself that I would book myself less, but you know who has got two back-to-back days already?
Speaker 1:yeah, that that's hasn't happens to me all the time too, but I'm actually bringing another journalist with me, which I'm super excited about, uh, and it's their first time out of pax, so it's gonna be. I I told her name is trina and I said just don't overbook yourself yeah, you know what also?
Speaker 1:uh, we need to hit up the dumpling place because it's real good I know that's what I hear like uh and also I, so we're actually staying at uh a little bit farther out of town actually, uh, because it was way cheaper than that's the other thing that makes sense, yeah yeah, uh, but um, but yeah um. We should go like I I'm going to. Well, you're going to be there a day before me, so like I'll be there all day When's?
Speaker 2:all day, but even if it can just be like when we have breaks.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like let's try to go in and see Cause, like sometimes, the breaks too are not like. Oh, it's noon, it's time to go to lunch. Like sometimes you have just booked that time.
Speaker 1:So it's like, oh, it's 2.30 and I haven't eaten yet, so yeah, I know, and that's weird, because like yeah, because your body, like for me, I'm just like oh, I didn't eat yet. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:I can't believe I'm not hungry, and only when you think about it, then your body kicks into like oh my gosh, I'm so hungry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah because up to that point I'm like I'm fine, I'm fine here, I didn't eat. Oh, I gotta go get some food. What's going on?
Speaker 2:and then, once you sit down for the food, then you realize how much your body has taken that punishment yes, yes, and then, and.
Speaker 1:But then you're like I don't have that much time to eat, so I have to buy something really small so I can, like, scarf this down real quick, so I can get back on the floor, um, but yeah, the part that I feel bad about is that because we have back-to-back and we have to make our meetings right, like and, and we only have a short amount of time with these games, it's not like we have a long time with these games yeah um, there are times if you, if the developer or the, the booth doesn't have a place for media, they will kick people off and I hate that, but that's what it is and I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I'll just say that I'm sorry. So if you see me at pax and you're playing a game and they kick you off, I'm just gonna say I'm gonna struggle. It's like I'm sorry, but that's it's like.
Speaker 2:I hope that what happens afterwards is they're like we're sorry we had to kick you off.
Speaker 1:Here is extra time for you yeah, I don't think that always happens though I don't think that always happens but like I'm sorry for anyone who's been in that situation, but yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It is not just about the fact that let's say, I've got like 30 minutes at the show if I wait for five minutes for this person to finish, wait for five minutes to get the kind of spiel about what's happening yeah, you know then they've got five minutes to kind of wrap up, to talk to the developer a little bit.
Speaker 2:You're only really playing the game for like 15 minutes yeah, yeah um, and you have to create content based off of that and a whole write-up, and the people who are involved in making that appointment for you will check in to make sure you are doing that. Oh, yes, yes um.
Speaker 2:So like you do really have to get get your stuff together, and you have to get it together very quickly and you have to um be ready to go and be on and be thinking the whole day. I think that's one of the harder things to explain about. Like, it's really fun because you're going back to back and you're not waiting in line for any of the games that you're playing, and that's always really cool. But you are from morning to night and oftentimes when you're on a panel or later, all of your social time, uh, is almost always also business time. So you have to be on and thinking constantly and you don't get a stop for basically the whole week.
Speaker 2:So it is such a whirlwind of like it's a magical experience. It is so much fun. It is rough on your body, it is rough on your brain, but like there is no electricity, like it yeah and there is no exhaustion that you will feel like it as well yes, yes, uh it, yeah, it's, it's magical.
Speaker 1:I like it a lot, um, and it's fun to see I think, uh, pax east was the first like this past PAX East was the first time that like the first PAX I went to. I didn't know a lot of people and I think this is actually kind of a fun time that we're in right now because, like all the people on that panel that we're on, like I know all of them, yeah, and it's really fun, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:But that's also why you go to these things, right. Yes, because you start out with not knowing anyone. And then you just stumble into a room of all of these people you know and you appreciate their work. Yes, and all of a sudden they are meeting you and they're like oh there's a person here that exists and we should be doing more stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean that's really fun, right. But I did also tell, like my staff, I said, just let you know I'm a different person at these events than I am, because, like they I will admit this they know me as a curmudgeonly older guy and I said but I'm a lot more like happy and like social when I'm at these things and they're like, my energy level is turned up to 11 exactly like you can see me on a podcast and I have
Speaker 3:this level of energy to begin with, this is sort of my baseline yeah can you imagine me turned up to 11?
Speaker 2:yeah, like roger has seen it, I'm sure yes yes, well, that's this.
Speaker 1:I'm a very introverted person. That's that's the hardest thing for me and I really push myself. Uh. So I'm very extroverted when i's that's the hardest thing for me and I really push myself, uh. So I'm very extroverted when I get to know you, like like we saw each other, like I know you, I've been on the podcast, you've been on the podcast, we've we've, we talked like a lot right. So like it's, it's like I know you and I know like people from the boss rush network, I know all those people like. But if I'm like in front of people that I don't know, I'm just kind of like I'm usually the wallflower in the back, sort of the opposite, like if I know you, I'm like, okay, you're gonna forgive me for anything that I'm not gonna do.
Speaker 2:If I don't know you, I'm like, hi, I'm jill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, that's not me, this is. But you know, our friend sebastian is very much outgoing and like that's I tagged that my first pax. I just tagged along with him because he is very outgoing and just and he's a wonderful person. I love Sebastian. Unfortunately, he won't be there. Oh that's a shame. But he'll be there at East, he said. So I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 2:No, I need to go to East at some point.
Speaker 1:You do it's, it's. It's different than West, it's different.
Speaker 2:It has no dumplings.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have dumplings, but they're moving it to May, which is being nicer weather too.
Speaker 2:Yes, that will be very nice, which will be really fun To not intersect with GDC.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, can I tell you real quick I know I said 10 minutes, oh, I still have a couple minutes Can I tell you real quick a funny story about East? Real quick, yes, real quick. So this has nothing really to do with east, except for that it happened in boston. I was, I was uh, it was, it was uh, it was an evening, it was a long day and I get out it was like six o'clock. So I'm leaving to go back to my hotel and it's just downpour. I mean it's just downpour, rain, and I'm like probably like a 20 minute walk from where the convention center is and I was like I should call an uber because it's downpouring rain. But then I thought I'm from wisconsin and this is nothing like that's lame, like you can walk there's. Also the uber cars were a lot more expensive because of the of the convention.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the convention and the rain and everything right. So like the prices weren't really high. So I was like I'm just gonna walk. So I was walking and I'm just, I mean, just from head to toe just sopping wet, right just imagine he was like a kind of puddle monster oh, my god, that's what I was. That's what I was, and I'm walking and I can't see anything, because I wear glasses and the water splashing against my glasses.
Speaker 1:Right. So I can't see and all I hear is this young girl yelling help, help, oh my God, somebody help me, help me. And I'm like this is it. This is my moment, this is my origin story. I'm going to step up and save this person's life, right? And then, as I got closer, she just wasn't wearing a jacket and she was with her friends and they're out drinking and she was just getting wet and that's why she was screaming bloody murder, like help. And I gave them a look of like are you kidding me? And they're like oh, sorry, uh. And then I get at this point I'm just like oh, I don't know what's happening anymore. So I get back into my hotel and I'm on the elevator and I'm just standing there like, like you said, a puddle monster, yeah, just dripping. And this woman gets on the elevator and she she's going to pax 2, uh. And she turns to me and she said is it raining outside? And I said no, I just showered. I just take a shower in all my clothes. That's how I do.
Speaker 1:That's how I roll right. So, um, what, what? Uh, just as we wrap this up, what tips would you give to like indie developers? Uh, as at the conventions?
Speaker 2:um, it's, it's weird because it's hard. You want to attract as many people as possible, um, but the way that you would try to attract people is ways that turn people off a lot of times yeah yeah, um, and especially if it's someone journalistically like me, um, I try very hard to not make eye contact when I'm going from place to place.
Speaker 2:Um, no, because you know, because it gives the impression that I am available to go over and to talk about the game, and sometimes I do leave spots open specifically to be able to look through booths and everything like that, yeah. Yeah, but for the most part I'm rushing from place to place. So if someone is pushy and trying to push me into their game, I am going to walk away with a very bad impression of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, developers, as much as possible, do all your legwork, do all your connecting work. Before the show yeah um, if you see a bunch of like, if you're having people, if you're just trying to get people's attention, probably still don't don't be pushy and like grab them over but, like I don't know, find something fun for them to come over and and have some kind of activity that they can do. Have seats, have seating.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh yes.
Speaker 2:Seating will get you people to your booth.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I know that's not always the easiest thing, but, man, if you can have people sit down and just rest for a few moments, like that's huge. Yeah, I would say like I know this is hard, right, because you don't want to be pushy, you don't want to be like a salesperson, right, but you also can't just sit there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I saw that at East, where it was a developer, and they just sat there and nobody talked to them, like nobody, and they didn't make any attempt to try to convince anybody to look at their game or anything. And I just thought, like you know, I'm assuming the booths are pretty expensive I don't think they're cheap and you have to do something. You have to do something right. Um, sometimes it's just simple presentation things too, like looking professional and having professional signage and stuff like that, like just, I know it sounds weird, but it goes a long way because, like I see that I'm like, oh cool, like they actually have their stuff together, versus like somebody that's just standing with a Steam Deck saying, here can play my game. I'm like.
Speaker 1:OK, all right, Did you try, like what's going on here?
Speaker 2:So I don't know we wish you luck either way yeah yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, before we head out, though, because I have four minutes, I said 10 minutes, I have four minutes left, I think okay, I think I think three minutes and 20 seconds okay I'll hurry up. Uh, how could people follow you quick? I'm trying, I'm trying. How? How could people follow you on social media? And, uh, like, follow your streams and check out what?
Speaker 2:you all do. Yeah, oh, um, you can find all of my work at the indianformercom. It's the easiest place. It also has links to all the places you can be following me, including, like patreon, social medias, twitch, um, all of that jazz. If you would like to follow me personally on social media, it is at Finruin F-I-N-R-U-I-N. But the Indie Informer is Indie underscore Informer on Twitter and then Indie Informer everywhere else, because, of course, someone else is the Indie Informer on a lot of things, is the Indian former on a lot of things. If you want to follow me on Twitch, I do stream every Friday at 2 pm Pacific time and I am playing a lovely game that my community has picked out for me, and so I usually don't know what it's going to be until the day before or the night before, usually. So, yeah, come, stop by theindianformercom.
Speaker 1:Nice and listeners. You can follow us on social media at GamerHeadsPod. You can also follow me at Nintendoraj. You can go to our website at GamerHeadsPodcastcom. You can follow our streams. We stream on Wednesdays at 8pm 8.30 pm, central Time on Wednesdays at twitchtv. Slash GamerHeadsPodcast and that's about it. So, jill, thank you so much for taking time. I know this is a long day for you, so I really appreciate you taking time and joining me.
Speaker 2:I'm actually just, I feel really accomplished right now. I think in two minutes I'm going to crash and burn, but at this moment I'm riding the high. I'm like I did it.
Speaker 1:I ran and gone. You did, you did well, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time and joining me this is a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:I always have fun good, I'm glad and listeners. Thank you for taking time to give us a listen. If you like what you hear, leave us a review. We want to hear. Leave jill a review. She wants to hear what you have to say about her stuff as well, like we. That helps us grow too, because that helps us know what you like and helps us grow. So with that, everyone stay safe and game on bye.
